Harnessing the Power of the Five Elements in Your Practice and in Your Life

Register for my Yin Masterclass: Creating Yin Sequencing Poetry.
Join me live on September 11, 2023 at 2 pm CT (USA) or request the recording after 9/11 at https://yoga.mandyryle.com/creating-yin-sequencing-poetry/

Join us as we unravel the intriguing five element theory with Dr. Melissa West, a pioneer of Yoga on YouTube since 2009. Learn how to apply this theory to your everyday life and to your Yin Yoga practice. This podcast will provide some great insights for you on how we might live more in harmony with the seasons and throughout each stage of life.

As our enlightening dialogue progresses, we navigate through the fascinating complexities of the fire element season and its unique divergence from Ayurveda. Armed with Dr. West's insightful knowledge, we'll shed light on how these elemental associations can enhance not just our Yoga practice, but our overall well-being. But it doesn't stop there! We also dive into the practicalities of the five element theory, discussing how it can inform our personality traits and elemental constitutions.

And for all you budding Yoga teachers out there, we cap things off with some invaluable tips on teaching yin authentically. So, ready for a transformative journey guided by the wisdom of Dr. Melissa West? Tune in and let's explore the power of the five element theory together!

Register for my Yin Masterclass: Creating Yin Sequencing Poetry. Live on September 11, 2023 at 2 pm CT(USA) or request the recording after 9/11 https://yoga.mandyryle.com/creating-yin-sequencing-poetry/

Find and Follow Melissa West:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drmelissawest/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@drmelissawest

Recommended Resources:
Holding Space: A Guide to Supporting Others While Remembering to Take Care of Yourself First
Melissa's Book: https://melissawest.com/book/ 
Get your own chart of the 5 Elements

Let's connect! Follow me on:
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Free Resources:
Master the Yin Yoga Pose Repertoire: 7 Day Email Course
Introduction to Pain Care Yoga
Practice Gallery Workbook - 6 go to sequences with pictorial instructions

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Yin Yoga Podcast. I'm your host, mandy Ryle, for this week. I am very excited to share a conversation that I had with Dr Melissa West. As you will discover in the interview, melissa has such a wealth of knowledge about Yin Yoga, teaching Yoga and even the business of Yoga. We sat down to discuss five element theory, how to apply it to your Yin practice and how it can be extended into your life for living in harmony with the seasons and the stages of life.

Speaker 1: 0:32

Melissa is an incredible resource, also for those of us who make our living teaching Yoga, as she was really at the vanguard of offering high quality Yoga and meditation on YouTube, having started her channel way back in the dark ages of YouTube in 2009,. She now reaches almost 75,000 subscribers with her weekly Yoga and meditation instruction. I have to admit that I am not a Yin teacher who has ever really connected with energetic theory. As you know, I lean a little bit more toward the science and evidence based practice side of things, so I was really excited to see how I might be able to apply these concepts from Chinese traditional medicine into my practice and teaching in a way that feels authentic, and I was really inspired in this conversation with Melissa about how each of us, as teachers, has something so incredibly special to share and that we don't have to be everything all the time. We can go with what we are most passionate about and leave all of the rest in the very capable hands of other amazing yoga teachers. So I'm really excited for you to hear all of this great information that Melissa has to offer. Speaking of offers, at the end of the interview, melissa tells us about an awesome opportunity to really get the experience of practicing with five element theory on her YouTube channel. It's totally free and she actually has a series that is starting just as we speak. As this episode is being published, I also have a great opportunity this fall for those of you who are looking for a little bit more guidance on building sequences. This is one of the more opaque aspects of Yin yoga, whether you're teaching it or you're practicing it. So I am offering a webinar creating Yin sequencing poetry on Monday, september 11th, in the afternoon, and I'm really excited to give you some of the nuts and bolts, information and strategy on how you build that sequence, so that you can really tap into that magic of a really amazing embodied sequence. So please scroll into those show notes. Go ahead and click the link to register. It just takes a second, and that way you will be registered for my free webinar on September 11th. If, however, you're listening to this episode after September 11th, no worries. Hit that same link and then you'll be able to register for me to email you the webinar recording.

Speaker 1: 3:23

Okay, without further delay, here is this great interview with Melissa West. Welcome to this interview with Dr Melissa West. Melissa is a yoga therapist trained by Phoenix Rising, where she learned an integrative approach to bridge the gap between yoga and talk therapy. She has a PhD in communications and cultural studies and taught in a university setting for over 10 years. Melissa is one of the OG yoga teachers on YouTube, having started her channel way back in 2009. She now reaches over 74,000 subscribers with weekly yoga meditation and yoga education videos. She is also the author of a new book Five Yin Yoga Practicing and Teaching in Harmony with the Seasons, and that is what we're going to learn all about today. So welcome, melissa.

Speaker 2: 4:22

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me, Mandy. It's a real honor to be a guest here on your show. I feel like it's just such a great synergy for our topics to be together. I just love your podcast.

Speaker 1: 4:36

Thank you, melissa. So the first question I have to ask you is not quite related to five element theory, which we are going to dive into in depth, but I have sort of been aware of you for a little while because we were both in an online membership together, and so I was already familiar with you before we connected, which is like how this crazy online world is anymore.

Speaker 1: 5:05

It's kind of nuts, but you know. So I already had kind of an impression of you based on your avatar, I guess who you were in that membership. You're so generous, so giving just tons of energy for everyone. And then notice, I had a look at your YouTube channel and I see that, first of all, you've been around for like ever. Second of all, you put up a video right Like once a week you know I mean you started your presence on YouTube before even yoga was a thing on YouTube, I think.

Speaker 2: 5:45

Yeah, it really was. We were early adopters, for sure.

Speaker 1: 5:49

Yeah, I mean it's really, it's kind of. I mean that alone is a really interesting thing to me, like you're an interesting person to talk to for that, because you've seen all of these stages. But my question is how do you stay so motivated and committed and devoted to your community on YouTube like that? Like how do you keep showing up like that week after week?

Speaker 2: 6:19

Yeah, that's a good question. Oh my gosh, I feel myself getting teary when you, as soon as you ask that question. I feel myself getting really emotional when you ask that question because it's a really simple answer, because it has been like we're coming up on 14 years now and to put out a video every week. It could be a grind, right, and sometimes it is a grind, yeah, but I just think about there are a few people that I think about that really rely on that video being there. I mean, like that it is a life channel for them, for their mental health and probably their physical health too.

Speaker 2: 7:17

And I know that you know I don't have the biggest audience on YouTube, but I know that the people that practice my videos have been guided to me for a reason and we have a special connection and it's become like a responsibility that goes beyond myself now as well, like my husband and I work together on this and he films it all. So it's like our marriage depends on it now and I have an assistant as well in Serbia and she's like my work wife and her family depends on me as well now too. Wow, so I think that you know it just gets bigger than yourself and it's not about you anymore. So does that make sense? I think it does. I think that's how it's. Just because the yoga with Melissa and the YouTube thing and stuff it. You know there are a lot of other ways to sustain a family or to earn a living. That would be easier, I guess. Or you know, yeah, yeah, but this is something that it's like we can't.

Speaker 2: 8:46

It's bigger than us now we can't we can't stop now, in a way, is something and thankfully it's something that we can do and continue to do, for I mean, I have no intentions of retiring because we will grow as our audience grows in ages. Yeah to, we will. We can grown, adapt with them as well, and I'm so grateful for that. Yeah, so it's a bigger purpose thing, which is really cool.

Speaker 1: 9:17

That's awesome, thank you.

Speaker 1: 9:19

Thank you for that, because I feel the grind you know, even just of a podcast, right, in addition to my clients and everything. And I have to say that I agree with this sense that you, and maybe on YouTube at least, people comment and like on a podcast, you don't know who's listening, you don't, you don't get that data, you don't get a little shot of them, you know a little picture. But in my mind, I see this audience, right, I see these people who resonate with this, right, and so it is. It's for, though, that kind of formless again, that avatar that's, it's just a part of me.

Speaker 2: 10:05

You know, yeah, I think it's really helpful to put it into form and I think maybe even just for your listeners to do that with a story, maybe a story or two. But the one that really sticks out in my mind and the one that really keeps me going is that I have a student and his mother died when he was very young and he that's when he started practicing yoga with me and I just feel that from the other side, his, his mom, connected us and I know that he still struggles, you know, in many ways in this lifetime and I just have to think about him when I, you know, when it feels hard, but I have, you know, I have so many students. It was the same even when I thought about when I knew I had to stop teaching in person classes because I was being called to take yoga with Melissa online, full, full time. It was this, it was I just couldn't because I just loved.

Speaker 2: 11:15

It was so hard for me to do that, because I just loved my students so much. You know we had babies together, we lost family members together. Like you know, the whole cycle of life, right. Birth, death, illness, right. You go through that with your students and it's no different in the online world, and you have those students, and it's really important for me or this is a way that makes it really human is to bring those students to mind. When I'm looking into the camera, like even right now, I'm thinking about somebody who might be listening to it, right, because that's the way to keep it human. Otherwise, it's just, it is a grind, you know.

Speaker 1: 12:02

Yes, that's cool, thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, so here's what everybody came from. I just had to ask that question because I am amazed and inspired by what you do and how you've done it for so long.

Speaker 1: 12:17

So, I want to ask you about your book. So you just recently published your book Five Yen Yoga Practicing and Teaching in Harmony with the Seasons. And I have to say, having been in the Yen world for quite some time, I am familiar with the five elements, especially in yoga, and we still have those same things in Ayurveda. But I'm wondering if you could just give us a primer on what five element theory is.

Speaker 2: 12:47

Yeah, so it's big and there's a lot to it, and so I would encourage people to not feel like they have to take this all in at once, but to maybe just let it wash over them and to know that they can come back to it, and to know that five element theory is a theory of the seasons and it's a theory of movement, and so to know that they have all the time in the world and that they can come back to it each year and each season comes to them. So I always like to start with water element season and winter, because that's the season when you're gathering the energy and it's the most Yen season. So it's a beautiful season to start with within yoga, and so that's the season of winter. It's the season of the kidneys and the bladder meridian, it's the season when we're gathering our energy. The color is blue or black and, yeah, that's just a beautiful season when all of nature is still, there's no life, but it's a time to really gather those energy reserves. And from winter, we know we go into spring, which is wood element season. The color is green, the organs are the liver and the gallbladder and we know in spring things, the movement is up, like the bulbs come out of the ground, they spring up, and it's a time of year where things happen like it happens in bursts. It's not like necessarily smooth, but bursts of energy. And, yeah, the color is green and we've got this just kind of burst of energy after the dormancy of winter. And then you go into fire element season in summer and the color there would be like orange or red, and this is the most young season of the year. We're just coming out of this season and fire element season I really do think, for those of you who are familiar with Ayurvedas, is quite different from fire and Ayurveda, and I think it's really good to put Ayurveda aside when you're studying fire element theory.

Speaker 2: 15:13

Okay, so it's, it's like the fullness, it's like expansion would be the direction, and think of it like when the flowers are in full bloom or when the sun is its most vibrant midday, and then we go into the season that we're in right now, which is earth element season, and now you go from yang to the balance between yin and yang, so you start to get some yin back. So you think about in late summer, like the August, september time, where the days start to get a little bit shorter things. The energy gets to be a little bit more gentle, the light starts to drop in the sky a bit and the fruit starts to come out on the trees and things just tend to be a little bit more gentle. That time of year, the crops are coming to completion, we starting to bring in the harvest and then we end the cycle with metal element season. Sorry, so there's like so much to say with each one, but in earth element season, your, your organs are the stomach and the spleen. So stomach, you take in and receive the spleen transforms it. And in fire element season, your main organs are your heart and your small intestine. So, moving on to metal element season, this is the final season.

Speaker 2: 16:39

You're in autumn, you're with your lungs and your large intestines, and this is like autumn time, when all the leaves are falling from the trees, so the direction is down. And this is when we are putting things down and we're preparing for winter, we're preparing for rest. It's like we're drawing things in and we're letting things go. So it's like in when we take in that harvest, then what we do, you know, in a great times we might like can things and put things up so that we have enough to get through the long winter again. So it's a whole cycle that we go through and we all they're all it's movement, right, it's energy, they're not really things. So we all have all this energy in us. We tend to have like more, like three dominant in us. Yeah, that, I mean. I think that gives you a good overview to start.

Speaker 1: 17:38

Yeah, no, that's helpful, thank you, and that's like you said. I I kept trying to sort of equate it with Ayurveda or even. You know I was thinking about the values More from the yoga tradition, right, the Apana and the Prana and the Samana, and you know I see little elements of that too. Right, like the Apana is that downward energy, right, the sort of digesting, eliminating energy, and then the Prana is the rising, but I see other things in there as well. Do you think it's most helpful? Then? You know you mentioned Ayurveda, but like to just not try to compare it to what we know from the yoga tradition and sort of think of it on its own. Let it stand on its own.

Speaker 2: 18:31

I do. I think it's best just to put it aside Because, yeah, I really do. Okay, yeah, because I came. When I came into Five Element Theory. I came with some some knowledge of Ayurveda and tried to look at both systems and map them. And I and also, as a being well versed in Five Element Theory too, people come in with their preconceived ideas of fire and everything that they know about Pitta. They just they don't map onto each other. Yeah, it's nice to just look at this as its own system.

Speaker 1: 19:07

Okay, that's helpful. Thank you, okay, and I mean, like anyone who's been in yoga long enough, I think, has to have a real love and affection for models. You know like we love our models in yoga. We love our values and our Koshas and our Chakras.

Speaker 2: 19:29

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:30

Yeah, it's, this is. This is another one that sounds familiar, but it's just another model that we can use to understand ourselves and our students.

Speaker 2: 19:39

Yeah, I think if we I think if we get too complex about it and try to think about how they all map on top of each other, then we get back in our heads rather than staying in our bodies, which I think is where we want to be when we're practicing yoga.

Speaker 1: 19:55

Yeah, yes, great Okay. So how are the seasons, or the five elements, then related to Yin yoga? Because I, if I'm not mistaken, the five element theory. This is coming from Chinese traditional philosophy, traditional medicine, right, and that is also ostensibly the genesis of Yin yoga. So how, how are they related?

Speaker 2: 20:26

Well, I think they make a good pairing because when I trained in Yin yoga, I know that we like to pull and pressurize the tissues of the meridians and they affect the organs. And so when we come into our Yin yoga poses, oftentimes we're for example, maybe when we're starting our practice we're doing like a wide knee, child's toes, for example, and in that pose maybe we're pulling and pressurizing the tissues of the liver meridian, for example. So when we're doing that we're we're attempting to impact the liver organ system. So that would be part of the wood element organ system. So we're just we're just sort of taking that a little bit further. Looking at, in traditional Chinese medicine, the five element theory is it's like a model, a way of studying traditional Chinese medicine.

Speaker 1: 21:38

Okay, yeah, Okay. So for example and I'm going to probably mess this up, but I'm trying to figure out how this works practically for me For example, the wood element, and for some reason, I've identified that the wood element is something that I'm interested in influencing today in my practice. So, obviously, like you said, you're going to choose the poses which impact the meridians connected to that particular organ system.

Speaker 2: 22:19

Right.

Speaker 1: 22:19

Right.

Speaker 2: 22:20

Well, so okay. So there are many ways that you could do that.

Speaker 1: 22:25

Okay.

Speaker 2: 22:27

So why don't we stay in the season that we're in? The time that people are listening to this Perfect, so maybe it will be a little more relevant. So when people are listening to this, it's earth element season. So the organs of earth element season are the stomach and the spleen. So there's a few different ways you can go about this. And I would say, when you're first starting with five element theory, you would start very simply and just affect the stomach and the spleen meridians and really understand them as best possible. Just really get to know the stomach and spleen meridians. So the stomach receives and takes in and holds and absorbs, and then the spleen transforms and gives you energy. And there's so many ways you could work with the themes. And what I've done in the book is if you have a pose that affects well, there's lots of ways that I've done in the book but say for the stomach meridian, and then you have a little reflection. So if you're a teacher, you can just take the poses that I've done in the book and read the reflection. It's really nice and simple that way For a lot of my students just open the book and take a few poses and go that way. So also with five element theory.

Speaker 2: 23:54

As I said, it's a theory of movement and balance. So you can also look at what balances earth elements. So people who have a strong earth element in them are tend to be prone to worry, and so one of the ways that we can balance that is with wood element. So if you think about earth, it can tend like actual earth. It can tend to erode with wind or water If it doesn't have actual tree roots going into it right, or canopy of a tree keeping the water from eroding it. So then we can actually go to wood element poses. Also, poses for the liver and gallbladder are very good for creating. It's called control. It's the control cycle for creating balance for earth element that can be in excess, too much worry, for example. So we can start very simply and we can go as complex as you want.

Speaker 2: 25:13

Or if earth element is deficient, for example, then fire feeds earth, like the. If you have a fire, the embers of the fire what do you call? That at the base of the fire actually creates earth. The ash creates the earth, right. So then you can use fire element poses, poses for your heart and small intestines, to create energy for earth. If there's not. So, for example, if you're struggling with receiving or not having enough nourishment or issues with digestion, you might back up and do some fire element poses. So by that I mean poses for your heart, so you can go back to connecting with your joy and love of life.

Speaker 2: 26:00

Or small intestines. Small intestines, all about receiving, absorbing right the nutrients, so like there's, just there's, it's really quite endless. And that's why I say maybe you know, if you're listening to this the first time, it's like whew, so much information right. So that's why I always tell my students that infinite time I love Vondescara rallies called infinite time. The teachings are absorbed with infinite time and no ambition. So that's like the principles of being like let's be still, let's stay for a while, let's allow ourselves to absorb these slowly over time, slowly over time. And each season, earth, like an earth element season, will reveal more of her secrets to us. And same as we go into metal element season, same as we go into water element season, that's the beauty of five element theory. As we spend time with we are nature, as we spend time in nature, as we're interdependent with the elements and the movement within us, we will more and more and more will be revealed to us.

Speaker 2: 27:13

And it just makes her a beautiful practice, yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:18

That that's helpful. Thank you, Because I have often felt a little bewildered when I've sort of. I don't spend a lot of time on meridians and organs as a Yin teacher. I'm more interested in the science of Yin, and so when I've tried to get a little bit more education, understanding into elements, organs, meridians and all of these things, I do find it overwhelming.

Speaker 2: 27:48

Interesting, I do.

Speaker 1: 27:49

Yeah, I do find it overwhelming. It feels to me like a lot of memorization, which is weird because I don't mind memorizing scientific stuff.

Speaker 2: 27:57

but maybe it's just where your aptitude is. Yeah, I don't know if it's at poles, because I can like this to me. I don't know. I feel like this. Maybe it's not too woo-woo, but I just feel like this is so easy for me. Maybe I had a past life with this or something like that. Yeah, I'll read and study the more biology based stuff and it's like okay, I get it, but it tires me when I do it.

Speaker 2: 28:25

It's just it doesn't resonate with me on the same level. So I feel like I totally resonate with what you're saying, because like it's almost like we're the yin and yang for each other for these things, because to me I just get it. When I teach this, it makes so much sense, I'm able to be so in my body with it. It's like the poetry of the body. But like if I were to try to teach your way, it just it doesn't. It's not like authentic for me. It just would be like I would be having to exert so much effort to do it.

Speaker 1: 28:54

Yeah, yeah, and I think that's, I think that is so. I love that you said that right, because I always do have this little bit like feeling like, yeah, I'm a yin teacher, but I don't even think about the meridians. That's not even remotely how I plan a class, execute a class, and isn't that great.

Speaker 2: 29:13

Yes, right, because we all taught the same way. How boring that would be. And it's great that we have people like you that are so into the anatomy side of things, and then people like me who are really more into the traditional Chinese medicine meridians, organs and then there's people that are more into the meditative side of it, and there's so many directions you can take it. That's what's so amazing about it too. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:43

Well, and I like what you said about how, when you teach this way, it feels easy and you can connect with it in your body. You know, right, like what a great test for a teacher like still discovering, like what is my niche. What makes me special Is to say, can I like teach this from within, from each cell of my body? Does this feel easy? Does this feel accessible? Because I know exactly what you mean when you feel it in your body, like the biology, I can feel you know Like I'm thinking about cells, right? So no, that's really good advice for well, for all teachers really, I mean for even really experienced teachers like us, but especially if you're still kind of finding your voice, yeah, and I think also for experienced teachers too, when you're dropping into something new, like when I started this, it really resonated with me.

Speaker 2: 30:47

It took me, it took me years to write this book. Right, like I'm trying to think of how long it took me to, like I wrote it with my students, so I was teaching it and writing it, and I'm trying to think of, like, how long it took to write not just the revision stages, but we, you know, we were working it in courses and things in my community, probably for about three years, you know.

Speaker 1: 31:19

It does not surprise me. It is a very comprehensive guide to the topic, very comprehensive guide Like. When I read through it I was like, ooh, I guess Again. I mean, what I perceive from you is this boundless, limitless energy. It almost seems like that you have for this creativity and the creation and the. It's impressive.

Speaker 2: 31:44

Yeah, so I have a lot of water element and wood element in me. So the water is, there's a lot of wisdom in water and a lot of intellectual energy, a lot of insight. Wisdom is water, right, so that makes sense for water, and then wood is the energy that brings it out too, so what you're saying makes sense. Okay, I don't see myself that way, but you know.

Speaker 1: 32:18

You know I get it.

Speaker 1: 32:19

I totally get it so okay. You brought something up, though, that I kind of wanted to tease out anyway in this conversation, which is that what I noticed a lot in your book and in your videos online is that self-compassion is a strong theme for you, and there was a quote in your book where you said instead of what's wrong with me, we can ask how can I turn the five, turn to the five elements for clues on how to look after myself with kindness and compassion, and you know, I love this idea that we're gonna identify like this is just me, this is my constitution, right? So how can I look to this model to learn how to better show up for myself? So what I'm wondering is if you can give some examples of how we might use that, even maybe not even in a yoga practice, right? Maybe just on a day when you're feeling depleted or overdone or too fiery or too watery, or this is all right, I have a great example.

Speaker 2: 33:48

Okay, because I think this is huge, because this was one thing that really struck me about five element theory when I first started studying it was that it was like a lot of sort of medical approaches in that and I'm not finding the exact right word for it, but that it was. You know what it does. There's a great word for this too. I wish I could come up with it.

Speaker 2: 34:10

More clinical, perhaps it's clinical in that what it does is it diagnoses what's wrong with you. Got it, got it, yeah, and that really rubbed me the wrong way. And what I'm really proud of in the book is that I really don't think it has that tone at all.

Speaker 1: 34:27

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:28

So and what I love about five element theory, in the way that I approached it and brought it forward, is that it really has helped me to accept who I am. So I did just explain that I have a lot of water in me and a lot of wood in me and that. So water is winter and is kidneys and bladder, and it's a. Kidneys are about your Jing Chi, your source, energy. So it's a lot about building the energy reserves, right, and then liver and gallbladder. It's that time in spring where the energy is going up and you're it's bursting, right.

Speaker 2: 35:11

So when I think I'll expose myself here, what I tend to do is work in bursts Like phew, off she goes, she gets. I get really inspired and I'll go and I'll work really hard. And I do this all the time in my life in various ways, like I'll get really excited about something and I'll just put all my energy in it and then I gas out, you know, and then and then I go back and I so if it was a tree, it would need water at its roots again, and then I'm really good at retreating and watering the roots and I do that through restorative yoga, yoga, nidra, yin yoga, you know, and I do this again and again and again in my life and instead of beating myself up for that again like geez, like why do you do that all the time? You, just, you, just you, just you work in these patterns of phew and then go back and you have to retent to the roots.

Speaker 2: 36:22

I realize that that's my nature, you know, like I'm not really sort of a steady, steady, steady person. I'm more like, yeah, I'm gonna have this burst of inspiration, I'm gonna come up with a great plan of how to do it, I'm gonna do it, and then I'm gonna need to retreat and give myself the energy so that I can go out and do it again. And that's how I've always been. You know, and the really great thing to do in your life is to surround yourself with people who balance that energy right. So I'm married to somebody who has a lot of earth, so that earth holds my water right If you think about the earth on the river banks holds the water. And my work wife, like I talk about she's earth too she holds me really well too. So you know, it's really important to be around people that support you and are not not working against your elemental constitution too.

Speaker 1: 37:29

Yeah, the counterbalance Like kind of how you were mentioning. You know, if there's too much of something, some element, you could do a pose that could balance it right and your practice, people can serve this function as well.

Speaker 2: 37:41

Exactly, and you see it really well with like in friendships and stuff too. Like all often find myself attracted to fire element people, for example, because my wood will feed their fire, but it doesn't necessarily always turn out that great right, Because they deplete me.

Speaker 1: 38:01

So yeah, Okay, all right, okay, okay, so let me follow that up then. So how? I mean, you've kind of answered this, but let's get a little bit more granular with this idea of how the elements relate to or contribute to personality or personal traits. You know, you mentioned that fire person kind of depletes you, or that the earth person is very nurturing. Yeah yeah, yes, so, and maybe you know, on that note too, like for example, you had me fill out a little- quick thing.

Speaker 2: 38:41

Yeah, let's talk about you for a bit.

Speaker 1: 38:44

Let's talk about me. I'm not very comfortable with that, but sure, but you know, so you had me through the, I don't know what you call it. Just get my chart right Of my percentages right, yeah, and you know, it seemed like everything was kind of in the same zone low teens percentage wise with the exception of earth.

Speaker 2: 39:06

Earth. You had a lot of earth in you, which is interesting because in talking to you and this is just one test, but in talking to you and I you know, I don't know you that well, but just in this conversation I would say you probably have a lot of metal in you as well, and also and I can explain why I would say that but yeah, you have. So your chart said you had a lot of earth in you and so earth element let's go there first and then I'll explain why. I think you probably have a lot of metal in you too. So earth element people tend to be very nurturing people. They love to do things for other people. They're very warm, caring people. They make excellent friends. They're very mothering people. They're very prone to worry, though, like they're always thinking about what they can do for other people and making sure everybody else is okay. They're great people to have in your life, very supportive people.

Speaker 2: 40:10

When I listen to you, I think that you probably do have a lot of metal in you as well, because, well, metal people tend to hold their cards close to their chest. So when you say like, oh yeah, I'm not that comfortable, like talking about me. Metal people are. I find the hardest at a people that have a lot of metal in them. They tend to hold their cards close to their chest. They're the hardest I find to get to know out of all the constitutions Like, for example, my daughter has a lot of metal in her and she's my daughter and I find her hard to get to know.

Speaker 1: 40:52

How old is she? She's 21. Okay, well, my daughter's 20, my oldest is 20. So we're right there. Yeah, maybe it's the age too, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 41:04

Yeah, it could be.

Speaker 1: 41:09

So I wanted to say that the metal thing, the cards close to your chest, is a recurring theme in my life Interesting yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:19

So it's just today. I was driving home I had a client and I came back here for the interview and I was remembering last week I went to a dinner with friends and it was like a, it was like a chef's dinner. And they came out and they was like 10 friends and they said it was already prepared. But does anybody have a food problem? Our first dish is eggplant. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said I can't eat. I don't know, I can't say if I'm allergic. It does not. It makes my face sting. Probably not a good thing, right. So I raised my hand and I say could you put something else besides eggplant? I shouldn't eat eggplant. I will, but I shouldn't. And then honestly just talking about it like I feel so, or even when I was remembering it, so vulnerable, right and like at that flush of like admitting that, like I can't eat eggplant, yeah, anyway.

Speaker 2: 42:19

That can be an earth thing too. Right Like you don't wanna worry other people or bother other people. You don't wanna receive like. You'd rather be the one looking after other people than having somebody else fuss over you, you know yeah yeah. The other reason why I say metal for you is you're real interested in biology too, and also you're very organized with this interview.

Speaker 2: 42:45

Thanks, yeah and that's a very people who have a lot of metal in them. They're very organized, they like structure, they like to have things quite organized. So yeah, yes, that's true.

Speaker 1: 42:58

So then, each of us has, like a unique signature, a unique percentage of the elements, and so you would take on the traits of your dominant element. That's basically how that works, yeah okay.

Speaker 2: 43:19

And also it changes season to season, right, so we're more affected, like right now we're in earth element season, so we're all more affected by earth right now. So it's earth is a transitional season, so we're more affected by transitions. Right now we're more feeling, more grounded, moving toward more, more in energy. Things are experiencing, things coming to completion in our lives at this time where maybe our digestion is more affected. At this time of year we're reflecting on receiving, the theme of receiving at this time of year. Transformation is a big theme at this time of year. So collectively, we would all be going through this during earth element season. Okay.

Speaker 1: 44:12

Okay, that's it. Okay, very interesting because a lot of times and I know every yoga teacher on the planet is going to resonate with this is that you know you're seeing students, clients, groups, you know, all week and there's almost like a theme. You know like everybody's coming in with this thing happening like one after another, and it's the same thing that you've been experiencing too, and so it's just. You know, I always think like, hey, we're just all connected, period. But there's something to this idea of like seasons were all, and usually it does have something to do with the weather, right, like you were saying, it's really hot where you are. Everyone is grumpy tired Right.

Speaker 1: 44:59

Yeah, yeah. So this, this, I love this idea that we're so sensitive to our nature and to nature.

Speaker 2: 45:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, look at you resonating with the elements.

Speaker 1: 45:18

What do you?

Speaker 2: 45:18

know, that's totally it, and I think that's why I love it so much. I mean, people think they're always like, oh my gosh, how do you know what I'm going through right now? And it's like, well, it's not really rocket science at all. Just you know, this is what's going on right now.

Speaker 1: 45:34

Yeah, you know, one of the things that I have over these many years of practicing yoga, teaching yoga, being a student of yoga, ben really charmed by over and over, is how compassionate so many of these Eastern philosophies are. You know, like when I first learned about the goonas, right, and you learn about the Rajas, the high energy and the Thomas, the low energy, the past oppression, right, and then this set buds, perfect Right. And when I first learned it I thought, oh, that guy's Rajas, too much Rajas, you know, or somebody you know laments that they've got to their two to masik, right, they're too sluggish, they're too tired, they're lazy, you know. But then when I started to really dig into the philosophy, when I started to teach it many years ago, I realized that like that's not how we are to use this Right, right, yeah, like you were saying with your book, like I'm not supposed to use, I mean, you could write it could be this diagnostic tool, because everybody always wants to know what's wrong with them and then they want the answer.

Speaker 1: 47:00

The diagnosis you know. But you know like, for example, with the goonas, and what I'm seeing so much and I saw in your book and it's conversation, is that you know the goonas are supposed to be like here's what's up. It's really hard because stuff is changing all the time. Sometimes it's Rajas, sometimes it's Thomas, sometimes it's Sattva, all in the same five seconds, right? So it's not about brow beating yourself, it's about saying this is a moment to be compassionate and to practice mindfulness, like oh here, I see now Rajas is coming up, got it? Okay, I have compassion for myself. This is a struggle, you know, and I'm seeing that in some of what you're saying too. It's like let's stop fighting it.

Speaker 2: 47:53

Yeah, I think that was like. I mean I lead without a lot in the book and I mean the title is about finding balance and harmony, right. So it's all about and I think all of these theories are about finding balance and harmony, right yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:12

And we're all so unique, we need some people that are more fiery or more young and some people that are more yin. We can't be all the same and even if you look at the day, you know sometimes during the day, in the morning, it's more young, which allows you to wake up, and then at night it's more yin, so you can go to sleep and restore, right? So we do need the energy to be always changing and it's important, it helps to pay attention to that and notice and appreciate the value of the changing energy throughout the day, throughout our lives. Like I'm entering into what would be the earth element season of my life. Right? It's no longer okay for me to keep hustling the way I was in the wood element season of my life, because I'm post menopause.

Speaker 2: 49:17

Now I'm older, my daughter is grown, she's in university. You know she doesn't need me the same as she did. She's not a child anymore. You know I'm in the waning season of my life. I've got yin in my yang now I just don't need to work as hard. I shouldn't be working as hard anymore, right? So these things work on all levels of our lives and we need to pay attention to them, right? Of course I don't have the same energy in my 50s that I had in my 30s or my 20s. And when we work against our nature like that, then we aren't in balance, we aren't in harmony, and then we suffer. Right, then we suffer.

Speaker 1: 50:05

We suffer. Yes, I think about a conversation I've had with a lot of yoga professionals, studio owners, about I'm a yoga studio owner as well about how and maybe it's partially it's our culture, partially it's out of necessity but we always feel like we need to be in a growth phase. We always need to be increasing increasing the money in the bank, increasing the number of students, increasing the amount of content. It's always, always, always, increase, increase, increase. Except that's just not possible, Like you were saying. I mean, in winter it looks like things are dead, but they're very much sort of growing and regenerating.

Speaker 2: 50:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:50

Like. We need those seasons of quiet and decrease as much as we need the increase and the sustaining too.

Speaker 2: 51:00

Yeah, and I literally speak to that in the book like I don't want to hustle my book in this interview.

Speaker 2: 51:06

That's okay. I always find that so annoying when I listen to interviews, but I do find it so interesting just to speak to teachers for a moment that especially in the Northern Hemisphere, which is 90% of the population, we are working in an energy that is antithetical to the natural energy of the seasons most of the time. So just for example, a time when probably our classes are busiest maybe not for Yin yoga, but is January, when everybody has their New Year's resolutions and comes back and that is supposed to be our quietest time. Ideally we're attending our reserves and things. And in the book I mean I can speak to it a bit now too but I offer a lot of suggestions for how we can prepare for that in metal element season, because metal element season is a preparation season so that we can still have time to tend to our energy reserves. And then it's so weird because in fire element season, which is the most long season, it's like a dead zone in our classes right, where everybody's outside, playing, having fun which is great and vacationing.

Speaker 2: 52:26

But then you know we've this is a time when our classes are quiet and we're not in the flow of the natural rhythm of things, right?

Speaker 1: 52:38

As a yoga teacher. And where does that all of that energy go that we have of increase right Of fire when we don't have any place to put it? We worry, we fret, we get down on ourselves.

Speaker 2: 52:51

Right.

Speaker 2: 52:52

So fire out of balance can really go into anxiety, for sure, and insomnia I mean, how often do you have insomnia in the summer?

Speaker 2: 52:59

So I think it's really important to be aware of these things as a season as a whole, and when we have awareness, we can make adjustments as teachers and even just to have that awareness. I think awareness is one of the most loving and compassionate things that we can have, because then we can make the adjustments and know okay, yeah, summer is going to be quiet, so how am I going to count for that? And winter is going to be bonkers, but it's going to be time when I am going to be tired, naturally, so how am I going to adjust for that? And I'm going to back up in this season and metal season and make preparation for that winter season and I'm going to make and I'm going to do these things and fire element season when it's going to be this just ghost town, but there's all this, this energy. So just to really prep in those ways, to look at the season as a whole as a yoga teacher, because it's just such a weird thing.

Speaker 1: 54:02

I think that's really helpful.

Speaker 2: 54:05

Yes, I think to normalize it too, right. I mean, I guess we all know we all go through it, right, and I found one thing that I did this year. So fire element season is just so young and so many people around the world are experienced such heat you know, and it's just hard to do anything in the heat, right?

Speaker 2: 54:32

And so this year I did just a whole month of yoga, ninja, let's lie down and rest for the month, you know, and you know, like, just embrace the energy as it is and let's bring balance to it. You know, and I had way more engagement than I've had year any other year in the summer. So I think, like let's stop trying to fight the energy that's there and just be honest about what's there and that people relax into it more too. You know, I think that's helpful too.

Speaker 1: 55:14

Okay, so tell us about how, maybe give us some practical ideas here in our yin practice. So we're in the earth. When this episode comes out, we'll be in earth. You know, how could we apply these ideas to the specific practice of yin here in this season? And, like you said, I mean, maybe we're teachers and perhaps we're preparing for yeah, what do you have for that?

Speaker 2: 55:40

Yeah, I'm going to share some things that I'm doing in my community right now, because we're spending two months really really focusing on earth element season, because it is a transitional season and it tends to be a shorter season than the other seasons. So one of the ways that I'm really enjoying thinking about it is that earth is the planet that we live on and it's always moving and rotating on its axis around the sun and so. But we experience this transition very smoothly, very easily, right? Yeah, so a couple of ways we can think about this is you know, how do we experience the transitions between our yoga poses? Right, we tend to be very mindful in our yoga poses, but what is it like when we're setting up our props for yoga poses? Are we taking the same amount of care and softness and quietude in those practices? But also the small transitions in our days.

Speaker 2: 56:50

Right, you know, maybe you've finished your work on your computer, your laptop, and you're going to the washroom Like, are you? Are you tense in your body when you do that? Are you rushing from one place to the next? Like? I'll be the first to admit that I do that. I've got that wood element energy. Right, I'm done this. I'm going to the next thing. You know, I feel my heel bones all the way across the hall going up. You know, feel the tension in my shoulders. Right, I'm just going to the washroom, right? So how could that transition be more easy, more smooth, more gradual? Right, it's not, it's just a transition from one place to the other in my home. How could I breathe through it more easily? I think that could be a really beautiful thing to focus on transitions, for example.

Speaker 1: 57:43

Yeah, I love it. That's great. I think that. Oh. I want to ask one more thing on that, though, before I move to my next question. My next idea here Is there do you have like a framework of poses that you might recommend for the seasons, or is it? I mean it's? I mean, it's what I'm getting from you. Is this pretty wide ranging? It could be, you know, mindfulness of transitions. It doesn't necessarily have to be, oh, this meridian or this organ system. What about the poses? Should we be mindful of that, or what do you think?

Speaker 2: 58:30

Yeah, so it's all in the book, so it's really easily laid out for you. So you could work with the organs of the earth element season the stomach and the spleen, so you could work with those meridians. Or you could work with the ones that balance earth, so you could work with wood element ones, especially if there's a lot of worry, then you can back up and you could work with the liver and gallbladder meridians. Or you could also, if there's like a deficiency, then you could work with fire element meridians. You could work with the heart meridians and the small intestine meridians. So in the book or you can look it up online too, you could look up five element theory and there's a I can. I mean, I can show you, but I think this is mostly audio.

Speaker 2: 59:29

But yeah, a graph that shows the five elements and the way that they move, so that they're generating and controlling, and so you could look that way easily to see which elements to work with together. But I think when you're starting, like don't bite, like start small, right, start at the beginning, just work with if you're, if you're just beginning, just work with the in earth element season, just work with stomach and spleen meridians you know, yeah, and then, you know, choose a theme, like I love Gary colors book.

Speaker 2: 1:00:05

Just one thing, like do not bombard your students with too many things. Yeah, just work with one thing and let them receive that one thing. So yeah, absolutely, I would just teach on transitions and then, and maybe I would just work with stomach and spleen meridians, right, or maybe I would just like this morning I taught a class on receiving because the stomach receives, right, and maybe I would work entirely with stomach meridian for that. And yes, just choose one theme. Keep it so, so simple, because, as you hear in this interview, this you could. I will probably spend the rest of my life with this and I've just scratched the surface with this in this book. There's more to say on it. I have a lot more to say on it. Right, I've talked about things with you today that aren't in my book, because each season I come into, as I, more and more is revealed to me, I understand more and more about the seasons, the movement of the energy in the seasons yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 1:01:20

So thanks for bringing in yoga teachers and how they can approach this. I appreciate that and I think you said in your book too. And what you just said is you know, take the long view with your students. Like, imagine that this person in front of you is going to be practicing with you five, six years from now. So by the time five, six years have passed, they've gone through every season with you, every meridian, every organ, every potential, like balance, this balance, that right. So just that one thing. You get a much more comprehensive understanding over time if you can really focus and and integrate that tiny thing in a practice or for a month, you know, a month of practices yeah, because the world that we live in now, we show up every week and you know if you're teaching in person.

Speaker 2: 1:02:14

You're showing up every week and you're teaching, and they don't want the same class every week. I don't think I don't. I don't teach in person, but I don't know. But I do know that when I put out a video every week, it can't be the same. So when I first started teaching, it was pre-YouTube and it was. You put everything you knew on the DVD, like I would record on DVDs, right. But that's not the world we live in anymore, right? So you have again, like, take Vonda Scarabvelli's advice. You have infinite time and no ambition. Try to give them the smallest little sliver, because they're way more likely to be able to absorb it and to have it be meaningful. And if you over deliver, then it's just going to go up into their heads and they're not going to be in their bodies at all.

Speaker 1: 1:03:09

Yes, yes, there's that, and there's the aspect too, from the teacher's perspective, of their personal development is that over time. If you give just a little sliver at a time, at a time, you become so much more skilled at delivering that information, but also in developing your own understanding of the information right.

Speaker 2: 1:03:35

So even as you're as you're teaching it, you are learning it and I want to say one more thing about this that maybe doesn't relate to five element theory or anything at all. Maybe it does. As yoga teachers, this is about teaching more than anything. We are not yeah, I'm going to say this we're not compares of information, like that's not our main job, right? I think, more than anything, we are space holders. So if we're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like, come on, we're already overloaded with information all day long, right? Yeah, might as well sit at home and scroll through your Instagram feed. So it actually takes a lot more skill and a lot more energy to be still so. I mean, I'd love to write a whole book just on the principles of yen right to be still, to soften, to stay for a while and to be comfortable and holding that energy like that takes skill.

Speaker 1: 1:04:59

I totally agree. I totally agree. Yeah, I think you know, in training yen teachers, that's the thing that scares them the most is what do you do with all that quiet? That's the most wonderful part, though, you know, is holding that space and like just watching, and, you know, just check in to see if maybe someone needs you, maybe you'll mosey over. You know, I love that part of yen. It's just the holding of the space and the, the offering of opportunity directed for directed awareness. We're going to pay attention to x, y, r, c. Now you have the moment. Now you teach yourself. I've done my job. That's what I love about teaching.

Speaker 2: 1:05:56

You know the job right is giving the space and holding the space for them to be able to and, if they can't do it, for them to be able to learn how to do it.

Speaker 2: 1:06:10

And and a big part of it too is to I mean we're getting off the top of the five elements for sure, but I mean this is so important for yen teaching is to give them some ideas on how to do it right. Like, maybe you're going to pay attention to your breath, maybe you're going to pay attention to sensations in your body. Maybe that's too uncomfortable. Maybe you're going to open your eyes and look at something in the room, you know, maybe you're going to repeat a mantra, maybe you're going to know that other people in the room are also uncomfortable. Like, so you're going to know that you're practicing with others and they're, and then you have to trust and leave it. You know, because, yeah, there's a great book on space holding and I her name is Sandra something. I'm going to make sure that you have it for your show notes because I think it should be required reading for all yen yoga teachers, restorative yoga teachers okay, yeah, for sure, let me know.

Speaker 1: 1:07:12

I'll put it in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 1:07:14

I'm sure people be interested not well known, but it changed everything for me when I read it as a yen yoga teacher, as a restorative yoga teacher, because I just realized how much people need somebody to hold space for them, because there's a lot of noise yeah, indeed.

Speaker 1: 1:07:43

Well, thank you for so many great insights and tools, strategies. Is there anything that we didn't cover, that you feel like would be missing from this chat, or anything you'd like to share? Just to kind of finish up, put a nice bow.

Speaker 2: 1:08:13

I don't think so. I really I really appreciate where the conversation went at the end with the, with some the importance of space and quiet, and maybe because I'm just really craving that right now, because it's so hot here right now, I'm really experiencing the yang of heat and to balance that we need water and quiet and stillness. But I think I'm not alone in that. I think that we live in a culture of yang, culture that really values yang, and I think that's the beauty of yin yoga is that it brings obviously in yin to a culture that's just drowning in yang. So I think, if we, we can trust that process and you know, one of the things about water element is it's about the mystery and we can. When we bring up mystery, it sounds so poetic and beautiful, but when we're in it it's uncomfortable because there's uncertainty and we don't know how it's going to end. But I think that's something that the practice can really teach us is to trust the mystery.

Speaker 1: 1:09:39

So yeah, I love that. I love that. That's so good. Thank you, okay. So obviously there's a whole book about this very comprehensive guide, which I will link to in the show notes if people want to learn more about it. But is there any other place you want people to get in touch with you or just stay connected to you?

Speaker 2: 1:10:02

yeah, so the book is available on any amazon world wide and you can get the hard copy. I recommend the hard copy. It's a beautiful experience. It's expensive I'm not going to lie to you about that because it's full color and it's long so it costs a lot to print, yeah, yeah, but it's a book that you're going to come back to, year after year, season after season.

Speaker 2: 1:10:29

You can hear from our conversation that there's a lot to absorb in it and there's there's a lot that you can receive from it whether you're practicing or teaching. So, but if it's too expensive, there's a kindle version that's a lot less expensive. I love Instagram, so you can find me on Instagram at drmlessawest. I have a website, melissa West calm, and I put out yoga videos on YouTube every week, so you can find me there YouTube. Comm slash dm Melissa West, and we are starting, I think, probably the week that this goes out.

Speaker 2: 1:11:09

We might we'll probably be two in to an intro to five element theory cool, where I'm showing you I'm teaching right from the book. So, for if you don't have the book, you're going to get an intro to five element theory. If you're a teacher and you're kind of curious how that might look, you can see how, how you might do it. So there's that, but there's there's tons of others and I have a playlist at the top that I keep at the top of whatever season we're in, of all the earth element classes right now, but when we're going to met a little bit. Season will have all the metal element season classes. So yeah, there's there's loads. If you want to go deep with this, if you're really gung-ho on it, then I do a lot with my members and our membership community and it's sounds like a really, really great value for your money there. Yeah, yeah, great okay.

Speaker 1: 1:12:01

Well, I will link to all of that in the show notes for sure, and I think people are really going to be interested in that little course, so thank you again, thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:12:12

It was a joy to spend this time with you. You're so welcome.